Lying and Power

An interesting discussion from the previous version of this blog.

(November 14, 2003)

“Ricky” writes:

I feel Familyman’s pain. I am in the exact same situation. My wife of almost 17 years, who has always denied that she masturbates, seems to do just that with her vibrator about twice a month. I too am crushed. Even though I know that she masturbates, she continues to deny it! (I notice her vibrator moved and cleaned in the bathroom vanity, and I have caught her once when I inadvertently left an audio recorder running in a dresser drawer. She at first denied that she masturbates and then finally said it was the first and only time.) She explained that she was embarassed, that she feels masturbation is cheating. However, she continues to masturbate and lie about it. I am more crushed that she lies about the masturbation, than the fact that she does it. Also, even though we continue to have sex, she never cums and it is always vaginal. I cannot rub her clitoris, nibble her breasts nor perform oral on her. Will her masturbation lead to cheating? Why does she continue to lie? Why won’t she let me help her reach orgasm? She seems to prefer masturbation. The deceit is the most painful.

Hello, Ricky? You “inadvertently” left a tape recorder running in your dresser drawer?

Riiiiiiight.

I think the major problem here is that your wife DOES NOT TRUST YOU. She doesn’t want to let you “do things” to her body, or have any “control” over her erotically, or let you “make” her come. She doesn’t want to open herself to you or “confess” anything about her inner life and responses because she knows you put a tape recorder in a dresser drawer to catch her masturbating. Even before you did that, she probably knew you were the kind of person who would stoop to looking for “evidence” to confront her with (and thus further destroy your sexual life together).

I’m sorry to be so blunt, but you need to be told the truth about this situation. That was really, REALLY dumb.

I can understand why you feel so desperate. You feel unloved. You feel that she is witholding her sexuality from you for purely mean and selfish reasons, and not because she’s desperate, too. But you really need to ask yourself why it is so enormously important to you that she admit her masturbation to you. Why do you seem to think she has to “confess” and “permit” and “allow” certain things to you?

Is it because you want to exert some kind of POWER?

Ricky, Ricky, Ricky. Use your head!

Your wife will never feel all sweet and sexy and willing toward you if your real goal in life is to Get Over on her.

Comments in response to this post:

Ricky and his wife are BOTH a mess: him for trying to record her actions; her for leaving a vibrator out in the open and insisting that she doesn’t use it (not to mention for masturbating AND thinking that it’s cheating); and both for (apparently) not trying to work this out together. Raging Bee • 11/14/03; 8:45:55 AM

her for leaving a vibrator out in the open and insisting that she doesn’t use it Yes. Subconsciously at least, she wants him to know. Psychobabble might say she’s trying to punish him. Or maybe she wants to be punished herself because she feels guilty about it? (not to mention for masturbating AND thinking that it’s cheating) This might be just something she’s SAYING to excuse her hiding it from him. She understands his concerns…he even thinks masturbation “might lead to cheating.” I agree she’s got problems, too. But given Ricky’s apparent focus on Controlling her, I can see why she’s ducking and hiding and attempting to fight back passively (“forgetting and not letting”). Julia Grey • 11/14/03; 9:13:09 AM

I guess there’s a bit of a chicken-and-egg argument here: which came first, her masturbating and being evasive about it, or him trying to control things? Of course, both of them seem to have sexual hangups that predate both behaviors, which makes the chicken-and-egg bit irrelevant. Raging Bee • 11/14/03; 9:56:45 AM

<snerk>The purpose of gaining intelligence is to assess the situation. It MIGHT be turned to negotiating advantage; but this is an engineering problem, not a negotiating one. If she has hang-ups (and it appears that she does), then you need to create a comfort level for her to shed them. This means conditioning the ambiant environment as sex-positively as possible. Note: “sex-positive” is not exactly the same as “romantic”. If she is conditioned to look at sex negatively, then no amount of romance will turn her on. It may make her friendly, but it won’t make her horny. Roy Kay • 11/14/03; 10:02:17 AM

I guess there’s a bit of a chicken-and-egg argument here: which came first, her masturbating and being evasive about it, or him trying to control things? Does a husband have a RIGHT to know about his wife’s masturbatory activities? There’s a bit too much of a pejorative slant to the word “evasive.” Then again, it’s also evocative. It shows you DO see the genesis of the problem. If you are trying to escape another person’s attempts at control you become….”evasive.” Julia Grey • 11/14/03; 11:00:36 AM

Roy: I am curious as to what you mean by “conditioning the ambient environment as sex-positively as possible.” I think my wife tends to look at sex negatively, and I wonder if you could give me some concrete examples of this “sex-positive conditioning.” Harry • 11/14/03; 11:18:33 AM

Good call Harry. Like many other guys here, I stumbled across Julia’s blog here about 5 months ago and really enjoy here insight. Married for 8+ years, 2 young children and a wife with no sex drive … sound familiar? That being said I’d like to here this theory on sex-positive atmosphere. Anytime we (guys) bring up sexual comments, we’re just being sex starved pigs and suffer from the habitual one track mind (which has truth to it but also subconscious). Steve • 11/14/03; 11:52:37 AM

Stay away from religion? >:> Harald • 11/14/03; 11:59:54 AM

No, the husband does not necessarily have a “right” to know about his wife’s jilling; but it’s one of the things they NEED to discuss, at least in a general outline, if he is to do his part to mend the relationship – assuming, of course, that he wants to help mend it, and that she wants to help too. It’s not so much about his “right to know” as about their need to be honest with each other. Of course, one can shut the other out – as long as he/she is willing to deal with the likely consequences of such a decision. Raging Bee • 11/14/03; 12:56:55 PM

Ricky, other guys are complaining that their wives have no sex drive. Your wife does. Why are you whining? I wouldn’t be this hard, but a tape recorder in a drawer? Even accepting the “accident” part, you could have just turned it off without listening. Sounds like: “Honest officer, I only had one drink.”In the context of many posts here, you should be celebrating. Why look to make yourself unhappy? I have to disagree with some of the comments about communicating, openness and honesty. Many people have private lives even with their most intimate partners. There are levels of communication, levels of honesty and comfort zones. Not every person can be honest and open about their sexual selves – or other issues in their lives/minds/hearts. That doesn’t make them worse people or less happy and doesn’t mean their relationships aren’t fulfilling. Also, the answer to the chicken and the egg is that the egg came first because the bird had to born a chicken to be a chicken. That’s evolution. The reverse (chicken first) implies that a characteristic developed during life is inherited and that is a form of Lamarck’s theory. jonathank • 11/14/03; 1:16:48 PM

Sex occurs within two arenas: 1) Love and 2) everywhere else. As “love” has never been mentioned here, it’s safe to assume we’re in the “everywhere else” arena. (Lots of good, healthy, rewarding sex occurs in both arenas.) In the everywhere else arena, sex can be directed toward 1) self-satisfaction, your partner’s satisfaction, 3) mutual satisfaction. As Familyman never talks about sincerely satisfying his partner (he talks about “getting his” a lot) or both of them mutually (there’s nothing mutual at all here), he must be out for his own satisfaction. Like I said a lot earlier, he ain’t gettin’ any and he’s pissed/his ego’s bruised. His mate understands he’s out for what he can get and she’s not interested. (Good for her… but I’m sorry she’s so damn frustrated with their relationship she only allows him to screw her, not make love to her.) There are two possible solutions for the person who calls himself Familyman: 1) Fall in love with his wife and reap all the rewards of loving and being loved (probably too late for that) or 2) move on (to the extent that other than selfsex is important to him, that could mean either lots of long showers or finding another mate). There may be a third solution but it’s gonna be unbearably painful to Familyman (who is so self-centered he should be called “MeMan”) that he won’t even understand it: Grow up and learn what “supportive,” loving” and “being an adult” means. An observation: People who cannot share with another, that is, share within a cocoon of mutual trust, cannot love fully… the connection between them may be okay but it is never quite complete. Indeed, sharing is not instinctive for most of us–being animals that hunt for food, carry guns and are often afraid of the dark and all–but it can be nurtured. To the extent one can share, one can love and be loved more. Love and respect foments trust and sharing and both thrive where trust abounds. Ron • 11/14/03; 2:53:11 PM

>Roy: I am curious as to what you mean by “conditioning the ambient environment as sex-positively as possible.” I think my wife tends to look at sex negatively, and I wonder if you could give me some concrete examples of this “sex-positive conditioning.” Okay. That IS a fair question, and it varies from person to person. The key thing is to project an easy acceptance and interest in a lot of aspects of sex. Options: 1) Don’t hide your own masturbation. If she isn’t into it and you are in bed, then do it yourself, unintimidated by her presence. If she says something negative, respond “Well, I’m horny and this is one approach to enjoying that.” 2) Vist sex sites, and treat that as normal. If you usually respond to interesting things on the net “Hmmm. Interesting.” carry the same pattern into the sexual sites. Don’t be excessively forceful about it, but treat it as a normal interested responce. 3) Develop relationships with women (on-line/off-line/both) who are fun flirts (and that may indeed lead to cyber-sex). You purpose is NOT to make adverse comparisons with your wife. The purpose is to create a normative pro-sex social millieu to counter the anti-sex milieu you are in now. Sooooooooo, be prepared to be assuring on that. If she comments negatively on any of this, just look at her blankly and bemused. Convey that you simply don’t comprehend the sex-negativity. Operate on the parity principle that you don’t have to be sex-negative unless you want to, and she doesn’t have to be sex-positive unless she wants to. (You may need varied phrasings on this to avoid seeming preachy.) Roy Kay • 11/14/03; 2:55:28 PM

Julia, you seem to be really quick to blame Ricky here, to an overloaded degree. You’re all about saying that Ricky wants to control his wife, but you negelect to mention any problems the wife clearly has and you squarely place all the blame on Ricky. I mean the wife is blatantly, obviously lying to him. Of course he’s going become distraught and start putting tape recorders in dresser drawers! Could Ricky have handled it better? of course. He didn’t mention anything about attempting to talk to her about and he should. But is he truly trying to control her? or is he simply confused about why he can’t fully express his sexuality with his wife. That couple REALLY needs to talk and talk long and hard about what’s going. Giving Ricky the once over for “wanting to control” her isn’t really helping them. Brandon Blatcher • 11/15/03; 5:00:17 AM

i’m seriously disagreeing with brandon’s comment, “Of course he’s going become distraught and start putting tape recorders in dresser drawers!” seriously, does anyone have the right to do this? it’s one thing if you think your wife is having an affair… but she’s masturbating. it’s normal, it’s natural, it’s part of her sexual life. personally, i think ricky is threatened by the fact that his wife can satisfy herself. after all, if she can do that why would she need him? i’m not a shrink, but it seems fairly obvious. alyssa • 11/15/03; 7:13:16 AM

Brandon, it might help them if Ricky can acknowledge what’s going on below the surface. WHY is he so “crushed” and distraught by his wife’s perfectly normal resort to masturbation that he resorts to such sordid behavior? Especially given that he says they’re still having sex. It’s because he is feeling unloved, and because he is feeling unloved he becomes concerned with power issues. He has to acknowledge that he is ON THE WRONG TRACK by making this issue adversarial and making demands for information that he (and you, apparently) believe he has a right to. This entire matter reminds me of a letter I received back in March, regarding a woman’s attempts to find out about/put a stop to her HUSBAND’S private pleasures (he was masturbating to porno magazines and she was having conniptions). In both cases, the spouse is attempting to exert control, and the other spouse understandably resents it and resists. Yes, this couple needs to talk. However, being confrontational about it and DEMANDING certain kinds of communication is going to do no good at all. Since this is a blog advising men what THEY can do to overcome their problems in this realm, Ricky needs to know that taking the attitude that he’s taking is not only be useless, but might actually precipitate a worsening of his sexual situation. If a guy is driving himself over a cliff, I’m going to yell at him to put on the brakes, not distract him by politely pointing out that his passenger might have tampered with the engine back at the last rest stop. He can deal with the passenger’s possible malfeasance once he’s hauled himself back from the brink. Julia Grey • 11/15/03; 3:30:36 PM

Roy, I think many women would take most of your prescribed actions (masturbate in front of her if she turns you down, openly visit sex sites, chat up women sexually online and then pretend you see nothing whatsoever wrong with it if she reacts negatively) as big, fat slaps in the face. Most women will read these gestures as expressions of contempt. If a man wants to kiss his marriage good-bye, though, or precipitate a total screaming crisis, they’d be ideal. Not saying screaming crises aren’t useful in a few extremely fargled circumstances, but as general advice to normal men who are already confused and angry and who might already be tempted to lash out blindly and stupidly because of that anger? No. Julia Grey• 11/15/03; 3:40:27 PM

I have said this once and I am going to say it again and again. If he put the tape recorder in the drawer because he suspected an affair, then yes, he should have tried to talk to her about it. But if she is masturbating, you can bet that it is more than just once in every two weeks. If she doesn’t want to talk to him then it is a done deal and the sex has become a “power issue.” Has anyone stopped to think that she is trying to control him by withholding sex? Lynn • 11/15/03; 5:05:03 PM

Okay, then. If someone has had anti-sex culutral conditioning hammered into their heads all their life, what’s your prescription for counter conditioning? One thing for sure. Acceptance and semi-internallization of the adverse culture by the guy (or gal as the case may be) will NOT work. So, how do you set up a strong pro-sex culture in an anti-sex household. Roy Kay • 11/15/03; 5:06:49 PM

Has anyone stopped to think that she is trying to control him by withholding sex? She is NOT withholding sex. Ricky says they’re still having sex. He’s dissatisfied because she is not responding the way he wants her to. She’s not coming, and she’s not letting him do things that might make her come. He’s unhappy because she won’t let him do the things to her body that he wants to do or fondle the parts he wants to fondle. I don’t understand why people are not able to see why his fixation on what he is not getting from her (including her confession) isn’t a major attitudinal problem, one that he should be working on. What good will it do for us to say, “Yes, Ricky, you poor thing, you’re so misused, your wife is just a bad, bad woman.” Even if it was true, how would that help him? It will only cause him to get more angry and feel more resentful and make more demands and feel more unloved. On the other hand, re-examining his own contributions to her insecurity and distrust, looking at the way his feelings toward her have become distorted by his own insecurity and power-seeking CAN help him — and her, too, eventually. Being encouraged by random internet personalities to see the problem as “Poor Ricky” tells him he essentially, ultimately has little responsibility for it, and the corollary is that it’s also something he can’t do much about. Yeah, she might be trying a power play, Lynn, but in an intimate relationship, what’s the smartest way to answer a power play? More power? A bigger emotional gun? A nastier escalation? Bzzzt. Julia Grey • 11/15/03; 7:18:47 PM

Okay, then. If someone has had anti-sex culutral conditioning hammered into their heads all their life, what’s your prescription for counter conditioning? Sure as hell not by going straight at it, hammering “casual” hardcore at them like a bull in a sex shop! All that sets up is resistance and disgust and anger. Sheesh. I don’t think you’ve ever tried this at home, Roy. One thing for sure. Acceptance and semi-internallization of the adverse culture by the guy (or gal as the case may be) will NOT work. So, how do you set up a strong pro-sex culture in an anti-sex household. Gradually. Little by little. Sensual before sexual. Get your partner to accept one small erotic pleasure freely, then another one. Have her look at another woman’s pretty naked body briefly, don’t stick a beaver shot in her face first thing. You CAN seduce an anti-sex person over to the Sweet side, as long as you take your time and OBSERVE and EMPATHIZE and have patience. And as long as you are really doing it for them and not primarily just for yourself, which is a hard thing to get hold of sometimes. You know what the real secret is? PAY ATTENTION. Really believe that your partner is important and beautiful and worthy of pleasure as a person. Oh, and be sure to laugh a little, too. Very relaxing. Julia Grey • 11/15/03; 7:31:03 PM

My answer to 90% percent of the women being talked about in this thread, if they are acting is accurate is See you later…. Simply because I don’t believe that what you are telling these men is either accurate or true based on my having talked to men that are going thru this. From watching the relationships linger when the man should have just given her two words…those two words being “See Ya”. I have watched several male friends go thru the councillng, the trying to talk, one even went so far as to openly having an affair to try to get his wife’s attention. He ended up divorced when he realized that the problem wasn’t him but her. I have another friend who is now divorced. His wife, flat out told him that she would not allow him to do things that would cause her to orgasm. At one point, (this is out of her mouth) she was on top, riding him, digging around in her purse because she wanted to be distracted so that she would not have a orgasm from him. She would tease, do strips in front of him, was actually masturbating both offline and online in front of him. He finally got his divorce, but he will be years trusting another woman. He will be years getting over what SHE did to his self esteem. He was paying attention, he went to the councilling, he tried to talk with her. She withheld sex, used sex to control. Now, my advice to most of the men here is to get while the getting is good. There is no reason to beat a dead horse. Lynn • 11/15/03; 7:48:59 PM

alyssa ettinge wrote: seriously, does anyone have the right to do this? it’s one thing if you think your wife is having an affair… but she’s masturbating. it’s normal, it’s natural, it’s part of her sexual life.personally, i think ricky is threatened by the fact that his wife can satisfy herself. after all, if she can do that why would she need him? i’m not a shrink, but it seems fairly obvious. ** no ricky doesn’t have the right to do that, but he’s clearly desperate for information. it doesn’t make it right but i can see where he’s coming from. i would agree that masturbating is normal. so would ricky. BUT THE WIFE IS LYING ABOUT IT. BLATANTLY. she’s not saying “i don’t want to talk about it” or “back off” or “later” but out and out lying. seriously, is THAT ok? Brandon Blatcher• 11/15/03; 8:47:08 PM

Brandon, it might help them if Ricky can acknowledge what’s going on below the surface.WHY is he so “crushed” and distraught by his wife’s perfectly normal resort to masturbation that he resorts to such sordid behavior? Especially given that he says they’re still having sex. It’s because he is feeling unloved, and because he is feeling unloved he becomes concerned with power issues. He has to acknowledge that he is ON THE WRONG TRACK by making this issue adversarial and making demands for information that he (and you, apparently) believe he has a right to. This entire matter reminds me of a letter I received back in March, regarding a woman’s attempts to find out about/put a stop to her HUSBAND’S private pleasures (he was masturbating to porno magazines and she was having conniptions). In both cases, the spouse is attempting to exert control, and the other spouse understandably resents it and resists. Yes, this couple needs to talk. However, being confrontational about it and DEMANDING certain kinds of communication is going to do no good at all. Since this is a blog advising men what THEY can do to overcome their problems in this realm, Ricky needs to know that taking the attitude that he’s taking is not only be useless, but might actually precipitate a worsening of his sexual situation. If a guy is driving himself over a cliff, I’m going to yell at him to put on the brakes, not distract him by politely pointing out that his passenger might also have tampered with the engine back at the last rest stop. He can deal with the passenger’s possible malfeasance once he’s hauled himself back from the brink. Brandon Blatcher • 11/15/03; 8:54:24 PM

Ooops, sorry for the repost of your reply Julia. it’s late and the commenting system is suddenly confusing to me!>Brandon, it might help them if Ricky can acknowledge what’s going on below the surface. > WHY is he so “crushed” and distraught by his wife’s perfectly normal resort to masturbation that he resorts to such sordid behavior? Especially given that he says they’re still having sex. Maybe because she’s lying about it? Maybe because even though they have sex, she is clearly trying to control him? Maybe because even though they have sex, she doesn’t share her sexuality with him? Hey, some of this might indeed by Ricky’s fault. But her response is extremely childish > It’s because he is feeling unloved, and because he is feeling unloved he becomes concerned with power issues. He has to acknowledge that he is ON THE WRONG TRACK by making this issue adversarial and making demands for information that he (and you, apparently) believe he has a right to. ah, so lying is perfectly ok? >Yes, this couple needs to talk. However, being confrontational about it and DEMANDING certain kinds of communication is going to do no good at all. where doe sit say that he is demanding? >Since this is a blog advising men what THEY can do to overcome their problems in this realm, Ricky needs to know that taking the attitude that he’s taking is not only be useless, but might actually precipitate a worsening of his sexual situation. I see your point here, but rather than blaming him, you might want to encourage him to talk to his wife. >She is NOT withholding sex. she most certainly is! >Ricky says they’re still having sex. under her conditions and control. >He’s dissatisfied because she is not responding the way he wants her to. ricky himself said the deceit is most painful. and christ all he wants to do is give his wife an orgasm. is that so wrong? i’ll cheerfully admit he seems to be going about it in the wrong way, but ultimately it just sounds like he wants to have sex with wife and wants to help her enjoy it. >She’s not coming, and she’s not letting him do things that might make her come. He’s unhappy because she won’t let him do the things to her body that he wants to do or fondle the parts he wants to fondle. >I don’t understand why people are not able to see why his fixation on what he is not getting from her (including her confession) isn’t a major attitudinal problem, one that he should be working on. What good will it do him for us to say, “Yes, Ricky, you poor thing, you’re so misused, your wife is just a bad, bad woman.” nobody said that. ricky clearly has issue and i can agree that he should focus on himself a bit. but to condemn the guy for waiting to sexually please his wife is…insane and dismiss his despair about his wife lying to him is extremely narrow minded. >On the other hand, re-examining his own contributions to her insecurity and distrust, looking at the way his feelings toward her have become distorted by his own insecurity and power-seeking CAN help him — and her, too, eventually. he contribute to her insecuity and distrust? if so, how? >Being encouraged by random internet personalities to see the problem as “Poor Ricky” tells him he essentially, ultimately has little responsibility for it, and the corollary is that it’s also something he can’t do much about. again, nobody said “poor ricky” everyone seems to agree that they both have problems. My issue is with blatant fact of her lying, his recording of her, and her insistance on controlling what happens during sex and your condeming of him for the way he feels. Julia, the guy’s wife is lying to him and playing with his head (and not in a good way). His feeling are understandable, as are his actions in taping her. Brandon Blatcher • 11/15/03; 9:12:34 PM

His feeling are understandable, as are his actions in taping her. Understandable, yes, but not right. And, as I said, those actions also illustrate what the main problem is. ricky himself said the deceit is most painful. and christ all he wants to do is give his wife an orgasm. is that so wrong? WHY does he want to give her an orgasm? So that he can say to himself, “I DID IT! I made her come!” Many men see sex as conquest and the woman’s orgasm as “proof” that they succeeded in getting control over her. That is one reason why they are so obsessed with “making her come,” “making her lose control,” “driving her out of her mind,” and so on. Many women, especially when they are angry at a man, see sex as being conquered, and they will resist men’s efforts to gain “proof of manhood” or “proof of conquest” from their orgasms. They’ll try instead to maintain autonomy, to hold their sexual feelings and reactions out of their husbands’ reach. Yes, these are bad attitudes. Terrible attitudes. They’re sick and neurotic. But they excuse nothing. Ricky doesn’t get a pass because his wife doesn’t want to give in to his need for conquest. She feels that she is defending herself by keeping him at arm’s length physically and emotionally. It may not be conscious, but that is what she is doing. Are there women who try their own conquest games? Yes. When they are insecure in a relationship, everyone, male and female, looks for power wherever and however they can. Should men respond to overt power plays from their wives as Ricky’s wife is responding to his? (She’s abandoning the relationship, as Lynn advises, without actually walking out the door.) NO. Once a relationship has gotten into power struggle mode, there’s only one way to get out of the death spiral: somebody has to stop. Somebody has to be an adult and admit some very painful things to themselves. One of the things people have to admit to themselves is that when they’re scared and feeling unloved, their minds go into power mode at warp drive. But the only response power mode gets from other people is DEFENSE. Defense looks for any possible advantage, hiding place, or push back. Hence a woman’s unwillingness to permit anything that would “invade” her emotional or social space. Letting a man have the triumphant pleasure of “making her come” is NOT what a woman wants to do under those circumstances. Maintaining her privacy and retaining orgasmic autonomy prevents that. Ricky doesn’t like being “deceived” because it’s another illustration of his powerlessness over his wife. When she lies it tells him he not only can’t make her love him, he can’t make her accept an orgasm from him, and he can’t even make her tell him the truth. He needs to face the fact that he won’t EVER get those powers over other human beings if they are not willing to give them to him. Sure, by putting a tape recorder in a drawer he can make her admit that she masturbated one time, but he can’t make her be HONEST with him in the broader sense, as one loving adult has to be with another. That’s what he really wants, not just her admission that she’s masturbating regularly. So how DO you get another human being to be honest with you? How do you induce them to even WANT to be honest? Julia Grey • 11/16/03; 12:12:45 PM

I just realized that my attempt to link the blog post in March that concerned the letter I received about a woman’s attempt to stop her HUSBAND’S masturbation to pornography didn’t go through. I think everyone reading this discussion will find it interesting, so here’s another try: Insecurity Julia Grey • 11/16/03; 3:37:04 PM

It is late so please forgive any typos in advance. To me, and this is my personal opinion, any woman that would do what Ricky’s wife is doing is the same as cheating. I am not going to apologize for this remark. She, in her whatever you want to call this relationship with her vibrator, is deprieving her husband of the very thing that we are being told is a woman’s right to have. The right to feel loved, wanted, safe, and secure. So either way, the male is the one that is suffering. What say you all? Lynn • 11/16/03; 9:19:13 PM [BLOGGER’S NOTE: This is the point at which I finally decided that Lynn was NOT a woman. I’d had sincere doubts about “her” many times earlier (especially with that “go ahead and back me up against a wall if I don’t put out” business), but this comment definitively revealed the masquerade. Not even a woman wanting to be deliberately provocative would say that masturbating deprived her husband of his rightful orgasms. I repeat: Not. Even.]

Julia asks >So how DO you get another human being to be honest with you? How do you induce them to even WANT to be honest? Ok, Julia, I’ll bite. How? I expect you’ll tell me that the best way to get them to be honest is to BE honest. (Reminds me of telling my child that “The best way to have a friend is to BE a friend). Okay, I’m honest with my wife. I tell her things like, “I got a massage the other day and it made me feel profoundly sad because I realized that I haven’t been touched by you in months.” To which she responded with a blank stare and no change in her behavior toward me. My honesty is met by her indifference. Not by honesty in return. Was I being manipulative in telling her that? To the extent that I wanted SOME sort of reaction, yes. I’m thinking that Roy’s idea about masturbating in bed next to her is not that misguided. I don’t think I’ll do the online pornography thing, however, as my wife thinks that there’s fewer things more evil than the objectification of women. Harry • 11/17/03; 5:49:12 AM

My two cents worth to you Harry, and the other men here….Be honest, be brutually honest. Because if that doesn’t shake the foundation then nothing will and you have basically three options left. Get a divorce. Stay and be miserable the rest of your lives. Stay and take a lover on the side to get what you are not getting at home. Lynn • 11/17/03; 6:59:08 AM

I expect you’ll tell me that the best way to get them to be honest is to BE honest.Why, yes. But the person you need to be honest with first is YOURSELF. You are obsessed, Harry. Whenever you think of your wife, you think only of what you are not getting from her, what she’s holding back. She’s not really a person to you any more, she’s your enemy, the Keeper of the Pussy. Her very presence in a room leads you to think only of your resentments, your anger, your deprivation and her selfishness. You don’t love her; you don’t even like her. And she knows that, believe me. She can’t trust you with her body or her emotions as a result. Was I being manipulative in telling her that? To the extent that I wanted SOME sort of reaction, yes. She’s gone into a defensive mode so guarded she won’t even let herself react to your reproaches. (Notice that this is still about what you want from her. You want REACTIONS if you can’t get anything else.) I’m thinking that Roy’s idea about masturbating in bed next to her is not that misguided. She probably won’t outwardly react when you do that, either. Except maybe by packing her bag. Maybe that’s what you really want? And you are WALLOWING in your suffering, Harry. You seem to almost enjoy this position of being the righteous man downtrodden by his cruel, cruel wife. Why? It’s my judgment (but remember, this isn’t the Church of Julia) that you’re depressed and fixated and overwhelmed with hostility and unhappiness. Ultimately, your wife does not want to have sex with you because, frankly, you are not attractive to her when you are in that mood. Get help. Julia Grey • 11/17/03; 7:40:57 AM

Julia: you wrote: ‘Many men see sex as conquest and the woman’s orgasm as “proof” that they succeeded in getting control over her. That is one reason why they are so obsessed with “making her come,” “making her lose control,” “driving her out of her mind,” and so on.’ I have no doubt that this is true. But this is not an attitude that is wholly invented by men. Women play a role in the development of this attitude, especially in the last few decades, when women have been overtly demanding that men make extra efforts to satisfy women, as well as themselves, in bed. And why do you voice such suspicion of men who want to satisfy their partners? Is this not a visible improvement over the days when women who wanted and enjoyed sex were looked down on as sluts? If I want to satisfy a woman in bed, much of my motives will be purely selfish: I find female orgasms to be a major turn-on; I want to feel like this woman, whom I would at least like very much if I’m even considering getting naked with her, is really getting something out of it; I make an effort for her in the hope that she will return the favor; and I don’t want the experience to be ruined by a lot of complaints that I didn’t “hold up my end.” Sure, I’m selfish, but since when was sexual desire totally devoid of selfish needs or motives? Raging Bee • 11/17/03; 10:15:04 AM

Seems like the Comments section is acting up…I made a reply and it didn’t show up. I’ll try again. Julia: I’ll admit I’m depressed and yes, probably obsessed, but I think if you sat me and my wife down, you’d find out that maybe she intentionally misled me to commit, by masquerading as a woman with a normal libido, then showing me how wrong I was after it was too late. I may be wallowing in my suffering but I do not enjoy this…I would prefer to have a normal, even a couple of times a month, sex-life, but will probably never get that, unless, as Lynn suggests, I find a lover on the side. Still, life is not so bad as to subject my children to divorce. Yes, always the stoic martyr, I will stay where I am, hope for the best, and expect the worst. Still, I do enjoy your writing, Julia, and the ever volatile comments section. By the way, exactly what kind of help do you think I need? Harry • 11/17/03; 11:33:11 AM

Ok there it is again. Harry mentions— subjecting my children to divorce —. Both men and women seem to stick it out through thick and thin for the children. How do you weigh in on this approach Julia? Fellow commenters? Is it a selfish excuse? Or a nobel cause? Familyman • 11/17/03; 1:25:18 PM

It is a excuse. The adults are not showing the children a normal relationship. The children also feel the tension and the upset and this can affect them in many ways.I come from a divorced home, and I made it very plain to my father that I wish he had done it way before he did. Children will be affected by divorce, but that can be worked thru. A lifetime of growing up in a non loving household is a different matter. Lynn • 11/17/03; 2:09:53 PM

So Julia, I think we are in need of some of your profound wisdom here.You have told Harry all the things that he is doing wrong. I have been in Harry’s shoes before. We were not married, it in fact happened some time after we moved in together, so it was a similar situation to some of the married people on here in any case. It got to the point that I really did resent her. I resented the fact that she wouldn’t let me please her, I resented the fact that she would not respond to my sexual overtures the way that she had in the past. I felt Exactly the way Harry did, that she had masqueraded as a woman with a normal libido in the beginning just to lure me in, and then shut it off when she was comfortable. It was more than about sex, she would not respond to my attempts to be intimate anymore. When I say “intimate”, I mean mentally, emotionally, and physically. I was damn well secure in my belief that I was the downtrodden, abused, deceived man. I had no idea what I had done wrong, it seemed to me that I had treated her great throughout the relationship. That relationship is long over, and now I find myself in another long term relationship that may indeed go far. What can I do if this one gets to that point, if resentment is the norm? What can I do when I start to see the tide moving in that direction to reverse it? What can Harry do? Maybe it’ll be painful, but it doesn’t matter, it can’t hurt more, it can’t be more exasperating, it can’t be more frustrating, than to have to go through the agonizing process of watching the woman you love go cold and distant. Jason • 11/17/03; 4:26:18 PM

Actually, I don’t care if one or both masturbate. I do know that if you go through life fearful that every misstep will alienate other people, you might as well give it up now. It looks like a perpetual lose/lose deal here, which is why – however dull Ricky seems – it looks like he will be wrong for a couple of years at best. So the question is does he want to hang and MAYBE things will get better or does he want to split and write this off as a bad match. It IS a bad match. Roy Kay • 11/17/03; 5:49:54 PM

Thanks, Jason, for asking some of the questions I didn’t get around to asking. And Lynn, it’s not that the kids are growing up in a “non-loving household.” My wife and I are upbeat and energetic people. I keep the bedroom problems in the bedroom. Sure, we don’t kiss and hug as much as the average couple, perhaps, but we do kiss and hug in their presence. The resentment I have for her is kept buried. I dig it up for purposes of discussion on this list, when I’m doing laundry (I’ve always been particularly insightful and philosophical during laundry-time, for some odd reason), and when I’m talking to two very close friends. It used to come out during discussions with my wife, but I realized quickly that it was not helping matters. The face I show my wife is one of patient understanding, non-demanding, non-sexual me. It seems to work okay for both of us. Hey, she even gave me an unsolicited hug last night. Woo hoo! Harry • 11/18/03; 4:54:24 AM

Harry, if you think for one minute that your children don’t feel the tension, you are deluding yourself.It doesn’t matter what face you show your wife, they know. Believe me. They might not know what to call it, but they are very highly aware that it is there. Lynn • 11/18/03; 5:14:01 AM

Divorce IS an option, certainly. Sometimes things are just too Fido Uniform to fix.But I also believe too many people give up on situations like this too quickly, and go straight from “not knowing what to do” to “busting out” because it seems easier and quicker, and appeals to our desire for “freedom,” not because it’s the right thing to do. Children adapt to divorce, yes. But they also adapt to “tense” households. As long as there is not outright violence or screaming neglect, they manage. Conventional wisdom on this point tends to be a bit overdramatic and caters very much to troubled adults’ wish to believe that they don’t have to work things out. But I’m going to have to put off talking about specific suggestions for overcoming the Resentment Rodeo for the time being because I’m on a massive project with a Friday deadline and I’m STUCK. Sometimes sticking places like this suddenly unfreeze and “write themselves,” but I’m not going to count on it. If I end up have to slog it out inch by inch, I may not be back until Friday afternoon. Meanwhile, though, you might want to take a look at a book by Peter D. Kramer called Should You Leave? Very interesting even if you aren’t in a relationship dilemma! Confidential to Harry: the help I (a non-medico, remember) think you need is a course of anti-depressants and some brief, forward-looking, action-oriented individual therapy. Try not to sign on with a therapist who will encourage you to look backward and feel sorry for yourself. No “in depth” psychotherapy, I beg you! (The hug is a good sign. Hang in there.) See you on the front page Friday. Julia Grey • 11/18/03; 7:43:11 AM

Lynn, I think you’re overgeneralizing from your experience as a child of divorce. Mine was different. I was that selfish and self-centered child who really didn’t have a clue that anyone was unhappy with the marriage until my parents separated. And when they separated, I didn’t want my father released from an unhappy marriage; I wanted him back. And even though they did their best to have a civil divorce, I found their conflict more visible to me when they were in separate households having to still work out issues of child support and kids than when they were in the same house trying to keep us out of it. Mind you, I’m not saying my life was ruined by divorce, or that there’s nothing more terrible than a broken home. I adjusted, still have a good relationship with both my parents, etc. And, among my friends whose parents have divorced, I’ve known a lot of different reactions: relief at the divorce, taking it for granted because of being too young to remember anything different, unhappiness at the divorce. But, I feel as if we’ve moved from a time when people were told to stay together for the sake of the kids to a time when people are told to break up for the sake of the kids, and that’s too glib. Julia’s right that kids can adjust to tension as well as to divorce, and that sometime’s it’s easy when you’re in a situation like this to give up too quickly. Unless a marriage puts one spouse or the kids in physical danger, unless it involves violence or addiction or criminal activity, no one outside that marriage has any business telling either spouse to leave. There are other reasons, of course, that the people who are actually in the marriage may decide to go, but not other reasons someone else should say that to them. Whether it’s conservatives dumping on Hilary Clinton for putting up with infidelity (which she’d be entitled to divorce over, but is also entitled to not find worthy of divorce), or you telling Harry divorce is better than the tension in his marriage, it’s wrong. A marriage can have things seriously wrong with it (no sex, infidelity, various kinds of lousy treatment of each other), and still be worth saving, as long as the people actually in the marriage want to save it, and aren’t endangering anyone’s physical safety by trying. Lynn Gazis-Sax • 11/21/03; 7:59:38 AM

Both parties in this scenario are acting badly and are manipulating each other. They both need to admit this to themselves and each other, or they’re not getting anywhere. A sad state but perhaps much to common.Julia writes: > (but remember, this isn’t the Church of Julia) I’ve found reading this blog very helpful, as it presents a brutally frank point of view that doesn’t get around much on the ‘net (more Barely Legal Teens, anyone?). However, today was the first time that I’ve delved into the comments section, and I have to say that this section at least does appear to be the Church of Julia – this is the way it is, and if you present a differing opinion, you’re most likely wrong. For example, consider “Most men see sex as conquest and the woman’s orgasm as “proof” that they succeeded in getting control over her.” How do you know that it’s this way for “most men”? There are plenty of men who act poorly like this, but there are also plenty of us who view sex in a very different way, one that is more about love and surrender than control (yes, surrender to your partner, rather than controling them). Female orgasms aren’t about power and control to me. Maybe they are from a Marxist viewpoint, but then everything is about power from a Marxist viewpoint. I started reading your blog because it was an excellent subject with a refreshing point of view. I suggest that your blog would be even better if you kept a more open mind in the comments section. Education by presenting your argument is usualy more successful than by refuting differing points of view. Opening people’s eyes is, IMHO, more important and effective than convincing them that you’re right. That said, I still very much appreciate your efforts and your blog; many thanks. Kudos for taking on such an issue. Doug • 1/4/04; 8:41:04 AM

I came here to try to find advice on helping my wife work through her issues about oral sex. And I wont be back for any of this ill advice.Julia – you need to NOT advise people to take pshyco-active drugs you know nothing about. Period. This is irresponsible and foolish on your part. Further more – your comment: “Most men see sex as conquest and the woman’s orgasm as “proof” that they succeeded in getting control over her.” is short-siighted and offensive. This is the type of comment one would expect to hear from a ‘man-hater’. Lumping all men (or most at least) into a single category, and then painting them all with the ‘selfish jerk even if they don’t know it themselves’ brush. You clearly have very little insight into the true male psyche, and have garnered your wisdom from outdated, woman-power, books from the 60’s. For shame. Why don’t you try to walk a mile in a man’s shoes one day and see how it feels? Because you wouldn’t be able to expouse your flawed logic and misunderstanding of why men do the things we do. Most men, in fact, want nothing more than (as Doug said) to surrender their machismo to the woman they love. This idea of conquest and making a woman come so you can say or think “I did it!” is a woman’s idea of how the world works; not a man’s. No man who is being honest with you feels that way except rapists and guys with serious masculinity problems. My assumption is that you think this way because you have never learned any different. Well, now you have, so please, I implore you, try to open your mind, expand your understanding, stop being prejudiced, and update your thinking on men, women, and sexuality. Get out of the 60’s. You can no more label ‘most men’ as conquesting dick-heads, than I can label ‘most women’ as controlling bitches. -Z Check yourself before you wreck yourself. Zark • 8/2/04; 5:49:10 PM

You can no more label ‘most men’ as conquesting dick-heads, than I can label ‘most women’ as controlling bitches. Okay, I have to reply because this misquote is getting out of hand. I said “MANY” men, NOT “most,” derive sexual satisfaction from a sense of control/conquest over their partners’ responses. And if you think it is only “rapists” who have a visceral need for dominance, control or power, YOU are the one who’s out of touch, not only with men but with human beings in general. I have been amazed, not so much by the instant assumption that my reference to “many” actually meant “most” (or even “all”!) — that’s par for this course — but by the complete refusal of some to acknowledge this normal and natural truth of many men’s internal lives. The FEELING is not immoral or “bad” (and as an enhancement to a couple’s love life can be really good) only what it might drive a man to DO against his own best interests. Witness the desperation of Ricky. Alternatively, if you just can’t accept it AS a truth, especially for yourself, perhaps you could accept it as something your wife might be thinking about you. How can you convince her that she’s wrong about you, that you really DON’T lust after sexual power and control? By insisting it’s Your Way or The Highway? Yeah, that’ll work. Julia Grey • 8/6/04; 9:04:51 AM

Many/Most your intention was clear. Paint all men with the broadest brush possible to argue your ignorant opinion. I assume Julia is a woman’s name? Ad yet you routinely ignore and deride the comments of the real men who post. You simply don’t know, you have to point of reference, and you have little insight into the motivations of men. Of course “MANY” people have many different approaches to dealing with life’s problems. You made a sweeping statement about what motivates men sexually, and I am simply telling you – Julia – you are mistaken. It is a giant gray area, no blacks and whites, and you just said for all intents and purposes: “If you all assume all men use sex for dominance and power, you’ll be right much of the time”. You are perpetuating the sterotype, and I implore you to knock it off. Also, stop telling people to take psychoactive drugs. As I said, that is beyond foolish. I would no sooner tell you to go smoke a joint or drink a 1/2 of whiskey than go take an anti-depresent. The correct advice you should be imparting, for your future reference, is “Talk to a professional”. Maybe you could then let them do their jobs, and be the ones to suggest drugs. zark • 9/2/04; 8:42:42 AM #

I’m going to be very blunt here, Zark. You are reading supposedly “clear” intentions in my words through your own troubled filter. You are making assumptions and jumping to conclusions that are fueled entirely by your own preoccupations, worries and personal obsessions, just as husbands and wives often do with each other. We can sometimes find out a lot about ourselves by looking at why we’re angered or upset by things that aren’t really there. Maybe you’ll want to consider that. You made a sweeping statement about what motivates men sexually, I most certainly did. not. ascribe anything to “men.” The fact that you cannot or will not see the difference between “many men” and “men” — which I have already carefully pointed out to you — is LITERALLY your problem, not mine. It is a giant gray area, no blacks and white Yes. Yet you are insisting that I cannot say anything about SOME men without saying it about ALL. No room for gray there. As to whether I “simply don’t know, have no point of reference and little insight into the motivations of men,” I leave that to my other readers (both male and female) to decide. Also, stop telling people to take psychoactive drugs. I haven’t told anyone to take psychoactive drugs. You once again seem to be reading what you’re afraid I wrote, not what the writing actually says. Julia Grey • 9/2/04; 10:16:23 AM

I feel compelled to suggest something practical for all the men out there whose wives are avoiding sex with them. If you can put the past, all the reasons you think she may be “doing this to you,” and the blame aside for a half hour or so, you can do something that helps bring me closer to my husband during periods when I don’t want to have sex with him (sometimes for reasons that have nothing to do with him UNTIL he starts acting like a martyr who married a cold-hearted, selfish bitch). Okay, here’s what you do: stroke her bare skin anywhere and everywhere she likes to be touched EXCEPT for sexual organs (back, legs, feet, arms, neck, earlobes) in a nonsexual way for 20-30 minutes, commenting on how beautiful her skin is, how smooth it feels, asking her how much pressure and which strokes feel the best where, etc. Do this with NO expectation for sex (and it may take several times before she can believe and trust that you will do this for her and not expect sex in return). Touch her, look her in the eye, talk to her about her day without making ANY sexual advances or expecting ANYTHING in return. This is one way to build intimacy…something you can create over time by following the instructions above with no expectations about what you’re going to get. It is something many women crave (in the same way many men crave sex) and almost never get from the men we love. You have to do it simply for the pleasure of being close to us or we’ll sense it’s not for us (just another ploy to guilt us into having sex with you tomorrow) and you’ll accomplish nothing. Good luck! Michelle • 10/2/04; 7:14:53 AM #

Men really are from Idiotville. Just wanted to post a thank you to Ms Grey and all the comment’ers on this blog. I was actually searching the web for info on “How to get my wife to touch me again” which i think was one of the blog titles here and I’ve been shocked at the wealth of info and insight I’ve found here. For the first time in 9 months I understand the depths of what Passive Aggression mean and how childish and actually damaging it is. That many of my behaviors are causing the problems my behaviors are trying to fix. I know that sounded funny and there’s some fancy word out there to explain it better like Paradox or something but I dont want to confuse myself more. The blog about how a nice guy becomes a dickhead explained me best. I dont know where to go from here with my effort on improving my relationship with my wife so for now I’m continuing to read more of these blogs and comment sections till I find a path and until then try not to be a dickhead and push my needs and wants on my wife. Dr. Phil said “As long as there’s a relationship the negociation table is open” and it was then I realized I dont know what relationship negociation is but I do know my wife and I arn’t and havent been doing it. Anyway, thanks again to those that are in this community for providing insight -Mike Mike • 9/10/06; 10:34:04 AM #

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