Comments on “Anger”

COMMENTS from the original blog on the “Anger”post
Before you can get to “why your wife won’t have sex with you” you have to find said wife, and before you can do that there’s courtship rituals and mating dances and meeting in-laws and writing pre-nups, and before you can get to that, there’s dating and talking to women and meeting girls, and long before any of that happens or is even possible there is this extreme physical need, every day immediately upon waking and lasting until I finally get to sleep, to sink my aroused phallus up inside some female flesh; it’s usually always on, roaring and ready to go, and easily reinvigorated just by looking at pretty faces and breasts poking out from under cloth. I am man and this is what it’s like. So while you’re crying, cry for me too.

Apologist • 4/5/03; 8:05:00 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/womensuck/SupplyDemand.htm

extreme, yes.

Apologist • 4/5/03; 8:19:34 PM

 
Very interesting. I haven’t read all of it yet, so this might be covered, but does it make any note of the evolutionary reasons for women’s control of sex? It’s generally the same in the lower animal kingdom: males seek, females choose.

The basic reason is because the potential costs for each sex act are far greater for the female of the species.

Will try to read more during the next few days.

Julia Grey • 4/5/03; 8:38:06 PM

P.S. I ain’t cryin’.

Julia Grey • 4/5/03; 8:41:07 PM

Over my nearly 50 years on the planet I have seen numerous examples of what you have described here from both sides of the equation. The two things that have surprised me the most are: the number of women who put up with the situation and the number of men who have been led to expect such a division of labor by their mothers.

A bizarre combination of these that I have seen over and over is the wife and mother who is running a constant battle with her husband over the household chores while requiring her son to do next to nothing, thereby perpetuating the problem. Another generation of young men are produced who see cleaning a toilet bowl as woman’s work. 

Steve • 4/7/03; 4:56:55 PM

 What’s almost worse is the woman who resents having to do all the daily crap, but in her secret heart doesn’t WANT him to do anything because then she won’t have the moral advantage.

Again, having the moral advantage only becomes that important to a woman when she thinks the love is going or gone. 

Julia Grey • 4/7/03; 5:18:44 PM

Interesting series so far. As a single male, it behooves me to pay attention to these sorts of things before they’re an issue. A useful look at what the years to come may bring.  On the flip side, it makes me want to go hug my computer and sign up for *those* channels on cable, then never leave the house again. 

Thank you for sharing your perspective and thoughts on these matters, Julia.

Groovy Dave • 4/7/03; 9:28:21 PM

Regarding the husband’s impression that things “just got done”: Men and women have different messiness tolerances. For example, cleaning bathrooms doesn’t strike most men as a necessary “daily task”. Once a week or even once every couple of weeks would be fine. So there’s probably a big gap between the amount of work the wife actually does and the amount of work the husband sees as being /necessary/.  If a man chose on his own initiative to wash the car and trim the lawn for an hour EVERY SINGLE DAY and then went around complaining about how hard he has to work at home, people would think he was being a nut. They’d ask, why don’t you cut back a little? So I have to take issue with the claim that the “daily drudgery” is all work that MUST be done and the only solution is to share the fixed amount of work “more equitably”. A little expectation adjustment is probably in order as well.

My best suggestion is to hire a housekeeping service to come in and give the house a thorough cleaning once or twice a month.

Whether it needs it or not. 🙂

Glen • 4/9/03; 12:33:52 PM

Wow, I really find you incredibly insightful. I am not married, but I will be in 33 more days. Fortunately my fiance reads this blog. I just hope he is taking notes and not just being entertained!

April • 4/8/03; 10:52:27 AM

Interesting. I haven’t read the other parts of this thread but I fear you are generalizing from your particular situation. We have a 5 year old son. My wife took the first year off with my blessing, as she felt strongly that she needed to. I committed to supporting the family financially.  After the first year she went back to paid employment half-time, two days a week. Again, this was her decision. I changed jobs, giving up seniority for a more family friendly workplace (telecommuting options, flexible hours, etc). In the four years since she returned to paid employment I have supplemented her income with three infusions of cash, paid the entire mortgage, all insurance, 75% of utility/ telecom bills which are in my name, and paid for 80% of the groceries. I won’t even go into the inequities of gifts except to say I’d estimate the ratio at 50:1 cost-wise. I also pay for daycare on the two days per week I work from home. I cover the annual vacation costs and one-time expenses like new computers, appliances, and furniture.

Lest you think I’m a cash-only-kinda guy, I cook three-quarters of the meals, clean the house between maid service visits. It’s also my job to give our child his bath, and always has been. I take care of him when my wife is out of town, at least once a week for a whole day, and once every three months overnight or longer. I haven’t been out of town solo in five years . . .

Not only does my wife not even ~offer~ to help with the mortgage or childcare costs, I recently got the word that “we” needed to save more for our son’s education.

Sooo . . . while I can understand your reaction to your husband’s fiat, I must tell you that in some situations it *IS* “my money”.

P.S. As for why my wife won’t have sex with me I suspect it’s because she only wants sex for one reason – to have another kid. No thanks, I’m tying a knot in it.

Can we change my name to something else? • 4/9/03; 8:19:15 AM 159.142.149.114

Canwechange:  

I’m struck by the very precise “accounting” you’re doing, and how resentful you sound.      … continued …


Have you outlined this whole credit-and-debit ledger to your wife? Does she have any idea that you (apparently) see the money and labor situation as unfair? What did you say when she said “we” have to put more money aside? Would you be ABLE to put more money aside if she wasn’t working?

What is she spending “her” money on? Is it stuff that you would not be able to afford if she wasn’t working?

I sense a lot of anger. I suspect you no longer love your wife and that your marriage has become nothing more than a transaction for you, a market where you feel you’re being cheated on a daily basis. That’s really too bad. It’s very sad when that happens. I feel sorry for you both, because I’ll bet she knows something is wrong but can’t figure out what it is.

But, just as I’d advise any woman who felt that way to face the troubling situation squarely and give her husband the details of why she feels so resentful and ill-used, I’d advise you to do the same. Show your wife the intimate accounting you’ve just given us and let her react to it honestly. Maybe she’s not really thinking about how you are totting up the equity, just as my husband was not really thinking about money in terms of life partnership.

Let her know how you really feel. Sure, it might cause some trouble in the short run, but If the relationship really has become nothing more than a mercantile and labor exchange to you, what do you have to lose?

Julia

Hello,  Interesting Site. I always thought that the original purpose of marriage was to ensure one could correctly determine their offspring and thus be worry free knowing that their fortune was going to the “right” person. I don’t understand what’s wrong with the all the detailed accounting. That makes a lot of sense to me. If and when it comes to complaining, wouldn’t a detailed account make sense? Furthermore, it also gives a rough idea as how much you are getting screwed, if at all.

Sanjay • 4/9/03; 3:52:49 PM

Julia wrote:

 I’m struck by the very precise “accounting” you’re doing, and how resentful you sound

 Well, what imediately follows is my experience of people, which was fairly wide if not totally promiscuous.

1. Precision is characteristic of people who pay attention to and care about details, regardless of their political or emotional bent.

2. Attributing emotional loading to people who you haven’t met based solely on their written expressions is fatuous. Projection,to use psychiatric terms.

I’m sorry, there isn’t an easy way around that. As for resentful, perhaps my shoulders aren’t as wide as they once were, but no, I do not resent my wife, any more than you wanted to *really* stick that paring knife into your husband.

To set the record straight, I love my wife, I am in *awe* of her accomplishments, and appreciate her contributions. Perhaps more than she appreciates mine . . . or not. Time will tell.

Have you outlined this whole credit-and-debit ledger to your wife?

No, she makes lists for me. I haven’t sufficient time to make lists. 😉

Actually I have, although not in ledger fashion. She sees the monthly bills, or could if she chose to. But it is easy to infer, or aggregate.

Does she have any idea that you (apparently) see the money and labor situation as unfair?

Yes, but I don’t think she regards it as a critical factor.

What did you say when she said “we” have to put more money aside?

I pointed out that 60% of my income went to maintaining the freehold (fixed costs), and another 15% went to household-related, seasonably-adjusted expenditures.

Would you be ABLE to put more money aside if she wasn’t working?

The importance to my wife of her work, especially emotionally, outweighs what financial and time constraints there on me the value of foreclosing on her paid employment (as if . . .)

And yes, I could probably save about $200 per month . . .if I quit having a social hour at the pub and provoking the local libs/neocons/loons. It’s my idea of sport . . .

What is she spending “her” money on?

Beats the holy crap out of me, I don’t ask, because it’s “her” money.

I sense a lot of anger. I suspect you no longer love your wife and that your marriage has become nothing more than a transaction for you

I’ve enjoyed the series you’ve written, even prior to being named CSoTD, and mostly agreed. I suppose I was just trying to show you the opposite side of the coin. Perhaps your response to my comments illustrates the obverse of male/female interaction?

If this were USENET, I’d respond to your “I sense a lot of anger” with

“Thank you Counselor Troi. I love my wife. In no particular order she’s smart, she’s funny, she’s beautiful. Now if only I could convince her of that.”

a market where you feel you’re being cheated on a daily basis.

Weekly, or perhaps fortnightly. Daily’s about the immediate. 🙂

That’s really too bad. It’s very sad when that happens. I feel sorry for you both, because I’ll bet she knows something is wrong but can’t figure out what it is.

Correct, but not for lack of my trying to explain. If I go factual it’s worth my life. If I talk about feeling I’m trumped.

I’d advise you to do the same. Show your wife the intimate accounting you’ve just given us and let her react to it honestly. Maybe she’s>not really thinking about how you are totting up the equity, 

Prolly not. Daddy’s girl and whatnot. Daddy hung the moon, therefore anyone who functions as Daddy can/will/must hang the moon.

just as my husband was not really thinking about money in terms of life partnership.

See, where I’m coming from I ~am~ thinking about everything as part of a life partnership. Given the circumstances, can you understand my frustration?

Let her know how you really feel.

Other than small specifics, not on. email me privately if you’ve any interest, if only for more columnar fodder.

Sure, it might cause some trouble in the short run, but If the relationship really has become nothing more than a mercantile and labor exchange to you, what do you have to lose?

The [arguably problematic]love of my wife, access to my son, and [truly] lastly, a physical habitat into which I’ve put a lot of valuta, and which all three of us enjoy.

Best wishes,

Canwechangemynametosomethingelse? • 4/10/03; 9:29:16 AM

 

Canwechange:   Thanks for your responses. I guess in your first message you were just…venting?…about something you feel helpless to change (or don’t really want to change). I’m confused, and you’re right, I shouldn’t make assumptions. But it did sound at least like you were COMPLAINING, hence my feeling that you were expressing resentment. I didn’t realize that the situation you described was okay with you. I made a classic “Ms. Fixit” mistake when I offered advice in response to what I took to be expressions of unhappiness or anger. I thought you might welcome an effort to help, and I apologize.

Julia

 Julia writes:

I made a classic “Ms. Fixit” mistake when I offered advice in response to what I took to be expressions of unhappiness or anger.

Heh. Took me five years to understand the difference between listening and “fix this”. Got beaten about the head and shoulders before I understood.

I thought you might welcome an effort to help, and I apologize. Never apologize for a dialogue. I learned some stuff and I’m sorry if that didn’t come through.

My ethos is if my child and my partner are healthy and well taken care of, all other things will work themselves out in time. One way or the other.

I’m 50 years old (yeah, I’m temporally retarded), but I learn things every day. The rest of your articles either caused me to chortle (i.e., “How could he think that”) or cast my eyes up and think “there but for the grace of Glub”.

We’ll do OK. Money’s money, and I’ll earn a lot more before I die. I’m more interested in what happens in between than my bank balance.

Best,

Canwechangemynametosomethingelse? • 4/10/03; 10:39:35 AM

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Anger-related posts: Anger : Comments on Anger : THIS is Why

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